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Post by dave632 on Jan 18, 2015 7:50:51 GMT -7
In case it was not noticed there were no red lights at the Outlaw event, which in my opinion is how it should be in at ALL Proxy races since the car builder is not present to drive the car..
If the driver/builder is present then by all means reaction time SHOULD be a factor.
Having somebody else RED light your car is totally unfair since you have no control over that.
DUMB luck should not be a factor, especially since here the red light can be eliminated.
For the bracket races we had several practice sessions so our tree response would be fairly good. A .100 tree and a tree blinder stopped any red lights in brackets.
When we ran the same car over and over in practice our times were all within a few hundredths of each other. This in my opinion was about as fair as we could make it for the brackets.
For the HEADS UP RACES an instant start button was used simultaneously for both lanes, once again NO red lights allowing the car performance to determine who wins.
Anyone I have talked to about this saw the flaw in a system where someone else can red light for you.
Lets take some of the luck out of the way we run the races, the cars are inconsistent enough.
Any discussion on this is welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2015 8:46:02 GMT -7
hmmm, my first event was in Aug 2014 and I was advised to use drivers although I wanted to use a similar button.
all my races that time were heads up pro tree.
I can see and understand the point of view of taking red lights out of the equation, but I occasionally go red when I am driving my own cars too.
this is certain to bring many points of view and I hope the entire discussion can be kept civil.
one of the reasons I participate here is because of lack of strife.
we ARE playing with little cars ya know.
LOL !!!!
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Post by dave632 on Jan 18, 2015 8:55:55 GMT -7
Not trying to cause problems, just starting a discussion.
I certainly can go red when I have raced even with full size, and that, as I said, is how it should be.
Someone else doing it for me is not right in my opinion. You are being penalized for
somebody elses mistake.
Imagine trying to do that with full size cars, it would be chaos.
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Post by pceng on Jan 18, 2015 9:45:20 GMT -7
brmmm....... brmmm........ BWAAA ! ! ! Makes them go faster (I'll try anything today).
As long as we race , doesn't really mater to me. Sure having car go red is a let down. But personally , I'd rather loose on a red than a half second reaction time.
On/off switch eliminates either of these. As it does away with human factor. I think having drivers lends a chance of winning against a faster opponent which is almost eliminated by single switch. IMO, drivers make events more realistic for our TOYS (like, Al said). This is probably something best left to RM to decide for given event.
Like I said, as long ss we race........... brmmm brmmm....... gotta warm up for today.
........ Peter
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Post by Eagle Racing on Jan 18, 2015 10:34:26 GMT -7
IMHO....I like the human factor. At the Summer Nationals we have seen and filmed some pretty wild races. I remember a racer that did not build fast cars at all. We watched his car advance against other cars with them de-slotting, stripped gears, and red light. He almost made it to the finals. It was the best his car ever did in any race. It sure was fun to watch and race in that race. Just ask Jeff about the human factor. He lost a race last your to the Escamilla Chicks in Pro Mod on a huge hole shot. His second car then lost on a red light. Jeff qualified #1 & #2. This all happen on his own track. It created a rivalry between Jeff and Amy. Take it with a smile. It just might end up being more fun in the long run. By the way it took Jeff a whole day to muster up that smile....  |
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Post by AJR on Jan 18, 2015 11:10:05 GMT -7
OK here it goes. I saw Dave's first post about Brackets and red lights on another thread and it got me thinking again on this subject. These are only my opinions on the subject....not looking for an arguement here. Everybody will do what they want for their events, but how this is done will have an effect on my involvement. The subject of red lights has always been a sensitive subject here at the Texas proxy races and has brought up a lot of discussion between Eagle and myself. The vast majority of any red lights that we have had at our events have been when a slower car was up against a much faster car and the only chance was to cut a great light, so we would push the tree. To my recollection none of those red lights would have changed the results even if the slower car had gotten a perfect light. Now with that being said...there have been red lights that have cost fast cars a day of racing. Those always bother me. The last one that I can remember was Phantom went out on what was my red light with one of his NT/F cars. My cars have also gone out on red lights and bad lights both at my events and at several others. IMHO.......red lights, drivers, holeshots, etc are as much a part of drag racing as a fast car. A simultaneous switch for both lanes completely eliminates the opportunity of the slower car having a chance for the win....barring any mechanical failure or issue. No more holeshot wins or losses. That is also an element of excitement that I do not want to do away with. We would see a whole lot more of the very result that Dave got....#1 and #2 in the Finals. To me that is not right. As Eagle mentioned above, we have had numerous instances where a slower car has progressed through the field due to the human factor. A builder that can build a fast car ...just not the fastest is handcuffed with a simultaneous start. We as Racemasters and/or drivers owe it to our entrants to be as sharp on the tree as we can be.....whatever it takes to get us there. We warm up before running any cars. I look at it like in real 1/1 drag racing where the car builder is the owner and we are the hired drivers. It happens to the best of them every weekend in the NHRA. I am open to things that might minimalize the red lights, but I will not take the driver out of my events.
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Post by dave632 on Jan 18, 2015 12:10:25 GMT -7
It is certainly up to each race event as to which way they want to run their races. It will not stop me from running in any event.
I have had races won even with simultaneous start won on a hole shot since some cars just react faster than others.
We eliminated red lights in the bracket races by doing 2 things.
1 - A .100 pro tree. No person in the world can react faster than that and the car breaking the beams adds to it. I have red lit with a .200 tree even with the cars time added in.
That would be a great start to eliminating red lights. You can still bracket race with it, all you get is the 3 yellows and .100 later the green. This would be the fairest way to run heads up racing. It will not help if the button pusher is asleep.
The second thing is a blinder which most full size tracks use when there is handicapped racing. that is not needed with heads up racing. The driver can only see his side of the tree.
Personally we practiced quite a bit with the .100 tree and we were able to stay only a few hundredths apart in all the races. There was one upset in the Inline Outlaw with the #3 qualifier taking out #1. Mikes car slowed quite a bit from qualifying due to I think a weak pick up spring.
If the changes I suggest are implemented that would stop EVERY red light in heads up, (unless somebody took a guess at the tree), and most in bracket. You would still be subject to someone sleeping on the line. In actual heads up racing with a pro tree sleeping on the line lost way more races than red lights. Probably with a 20-1 ratio.
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Post by pceng on Jan 18, 2015 12:32:24 GMT -7
Hey guys,
Whichever way an event may be run is something you deal with when proxy racing. Whether attending or by not attending. I guess how one looks at the races may influence their opinion on this subject. If one enters races to have fun and some entertainment. Then the unpredictability of drivers could add to this for them. BUT , at the same time loosing because of a mistake or slooowwww reaction is anything but fun.
To me drivers add some flavor to events (it can suck at times). Switches are like ET events, kinda know the end before its over. EITHER WAY WHEN'S THE RACE ! ! !
........ Peter
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Post by Phantom B.S.E. on Jan 18, 2015 14:45:44 GMT -7
My opinion is red lights are a part of racing.
That said remember we are only racing toy cars
for fun and I'm having a great time on Nitroslots.
(By the way JJ you bring up that red light defeat but
I too got a win or 2 do to pushing the light)
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Post by Doug412 on Jan 19, 2015 2:02:23 GMT -7
Now now Boys, this is a HOBBY and we don't want people to take their toys and go home.. My first race yes we RED Lit alot.. even re ran some races due to the young driver and their competitive nature. But all in all RedLights do happen in REAL RACING.. so it does give the feel of being at the track. Yes it bites to lose that way but like its been stated THIS IS A HOBBY WITH TOYS!! you're not losing thousands cause your proxy driver jumped early, Hell some tracks my cars leave LATE due to bad reaction times.. I'm not complaining cause that's racing.. If you don't want to PLAY right then Don't Play At ALL is what i was taught by my Grandparents... Sportsmanship and Faith in our Racemasters conducting as fair a race as possible is what PROXY RACING IS.. The Human factor is going to be apart of Mockingbird Heights Dragway cause it's how we role around here...
We're not at Hobbytalk or some other bs site we are at NITROSLOTS.COM official proxy racing site!! We race for Entertainment Value and we exchange knowledge about these tiny toys.. Thanks!!
Race On Doug412
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Post by nosubfor3 on Jan 19, 2015 3:41:35 GMT -7
I also have mixed emotions with red lights. But I agree with every point of view that has been raised. Quote"s from other members:
But all in all RedLights do happen in REAL RACING.. so it does give the feel of being at the track.
Yes it bites to lose that way but like its been stated THIS IS A HOBBY WITH TOYS!! you're not losing thousands cause your proxy driver jumped early,
My opinion is red lights are a part of racing.
That said remember we are only racing toy cars
for fun and I'm having a great time on Nitroslots.
We as Race masters and/or drivers owe it to our entrants to be as sharp on the tree as we can be.....whatever it takes to get us there. We warm up before running any cars. I look at it like in real 1/1 drag racing where the car builder is the owner and we are the hired drivers. It happens to the best of them every weekend in the NHRA. I am open to things that might minimalize the red lights, but I will not take the driver out of my events.
As long as we race , doesn't really mater to me. Sure having car go red is a let down. But personally , I'd rather loose on a red than a half second reaction time.
In summary myself and others have lost races any where form first round all the way to semi finials due to red lights. Some events you never see red lights. Some you do. What that tells me is it is up to the host track race master to decide. AS IT SHOULD BE IMO. It is no different than the black tire rule or what voltage the class is run at on their specific track. SO I say thank you to both situations. Those who choose not to have red lights and those who do. Either way I am here to race by challenging my self and others to a win. Again not a rant just my opinions.
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Post by dave632 on Jan 19, 2015 10:56:51 GMT -7
I have watched and participated in more drag races than I could possibly remember.
In Bracket racing full size cars with the .500 blink blink 3 light tree I would estimate there are nearly 50% red lights. Either by the guy going first or second. The natural action seems to be to push the tree for all
you can since most races are won by hundredths or even thousandths.
With Pro Tree racing red lights do not occur that often, my guess would be less than 5% since the driver has only .400 for him and the car to react. All cars react differently so some will have better reactions just due to the car they are driving. In my Beretta I could beat my street Camaro by almost .2 of a second in reaction times.
Even when we were practicing we red lit often until we used the blinder and the .100 tree. I realize that most systems that we race with here do not have the option to go all the way down to .100 but it completely eliminated any red lights.
At least a blinder should be used to help by not seeing the others tree. Also the Pro tree would help to some degree but if a .400 is used you almost have to be dead not to be able to red light with these cars. NHRA teams do hire Pro drivers who get paid pretty well so they had better be good. I do not see even them going red, with super expensive cars, very often on a .400 tree. I cannot see any comparison to them and one of us on a pro tree and on a 3 light tree it is just a guessing game where red lights are extremely common. My next question would be what kind of light are you using for your race, Pro or Bracket and what timing. I stick with my opinion and will run my races accordingly. |
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