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Post by dave632 on May 18, 2017 14:28:24 GMT -7
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Post by bluesguy on May 19, 2017 19:10:42 GMT -7
Thanks Dave,
Good info.
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Post by dave632 on Aug 19, 2020 6:33:32 GMT -7
These tests showed that it is hard to predict what will happen as you change timing on a motor. Some reacted well to advance while others did not. That is one of the advantages of the Tomy Super G+ style chassis as you can change the timing quickly.
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Post by pete on Aug 19, 2020 12:54:38 GMT -7
Forget the adjustable end bell. If you tweak your end bell, you have adjusted or changed, or how ever you want to define it, the timing of the motor. Not legal. If you don't know now you know. You can't un see it.
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Post by dave632 on Aug 19, 2020 14:43:58 GMT -7
I am just trying to explain what happened when I moved the timing around not what is legal or not. There was no absolute pattern when
I made the adjustments. Some ran better with neutral timing. It is also impossible to check timing on an motor at any of the races we hold
since you would have to take a motor apart to see if there is any timing adjustment made and even then it is pretty tough to tell. On the Super G etc.
,since it is the only one with and adjustable end bell, it is easy to look at the end bell and see if any timing adjustment has been made but not on
anything else without a motor disassembly.
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Post by sjracer on Aug 19, 2020 15:16:24 GMT -7
It is illegal for some classes but as I read the rules for inline Super Comp it isn't. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by AJR on Aug 19, 2020 15:45:44 GMT -7
It is illegal for some classes but as I read the rules for inline Super Comp it isn't. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You are correct SJ. It is also legal in Inline Comp. |
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Post by pete on Aug 19, 2020 17:06:31 GMT -7
I just want everyone to become a better tuner builder racer. It is my hope we all send cars in within a few hundredths of one another, how cool would that be? Dave and Jeff are correct, depends on your set up.
I want to know we all have the same tools and understanding of them and how they apply. I raced a long time without really understanding what does and does not work. Only a few will share that knowledge. Its thought of as having a edge, that would be a correct way to think.
Here is my selfish reason for pushing the issue. Im going to use a car that has advanced timing built into the design. There is no way I can use that car with a clear conscious if the timing rule is in place. So to be clear, Im not saying more rules, its less rules.
If it has been a long time issue and it does and does not matter, then remove the issue.
The fusion comes two ways. 10 degree advance and 20 degree advance. There is no Zero. With the timing rules for stock and super stock the car should not be allowed to compete in these classes, Im being honest.
That would be a loss if the rule were to be enforced. Since its hard to see if any car has advance without a tear down, how can the rule be fairly enforced?
I was tech inspector for NYCONN racing club over ten years. I can spot it in one second, either in the arm or the brush.
To clarify the only cars that can be seen visually without a tear down are the Mega G and the Jag cars.
If the purpose is to make things easy and fair, why have something that says you can't do when you can not police it and everyone know it?
If a rule can not be policed and enforced, if the rule allows some and not all, then it is poorly written, that is where it becomes an issue.
If timing may or may not mean anything then remove the issue not my car.
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Post by AJR on Aug 19, 2020 19:24:17 GMT -7
I just want everyone to become a better tuner builder racer. It is my hope we all send cars in within a few hundredths of one another, how cool would that be? Dave and Jeff are correct, depends on your set up. I want to know we all have the same tools and understanding of them and how they apply. I raced a long time without really understanding what does and does not work. Only a few will share that knowledge. Its thought of as having a edge, that would be a correct way to think. Here is my selfish reason for pushing the issue. Im going to use a car that has advanced timing built into the design. There is no way I can use that car with a clear conscious if the timing rule is in place. So to be clear, Im not saying more rules, its less rules. If it has been a long time issue and it does and does not matter, then remove the issue. The fusion comes two ways. 10 degree advance and 20 degree advance. There is no Zero. With the timing rules for stock and super stock the car should not be allowed to compete in these classes, Im being honest. That would be a loss if the rule were to be enforced. Since its hard to see if any car has advance without a tear down, how can the rule be fairly enforced? I was tech inspector for NYCONN racing club over ten years. I can spot it in one second, either in the arm or the brush. To clarify the only cars that can be seen visually without a tear down are the Mega G and the Jag cars. If the purpose is to make things easy and fair, why have something that says you can't do when you can not police it and everyone know it? If a rule can not be policed and enforced, if the rule allows some and not all, then it is poorly written, that is where it becomes an issue. If timing may or may not mean anything then remove the issue not my car. I might have previously said this already but let me say it out loud again if I did........I hate open forum rules discussions and here's why. Because everyone has a different interpretation or opinion of any given rule and usually turns into a lengthy sometimes heated discussion and has almost brought down the forum in the past. The current set of rules were written to be flexible so the Racemaster could "fine tune" them if they desired. You and I have already had a discussion regarding the current Inline Stock rules and I informed you that changes were going to be made. If I remember correctly your concern was with the SG+ being allowed to run in Stock due to the ability to change the timing and the superior traction magnets. We are not running Inline Stock for my race so I'm not sure why the discussion about this now. It's as simple as the Racemaster allowing timing adjustments. The other thing about open forum rules discussions is that no decision is going to please everybody. I like to try and appease everyone if possible. Were you told that your Fusion was not allowed? Refresh my memory if I told you that. I don't remember. I will also say that your tuning tips and insight are very much appreciated. You have an obvious wealth of knowledge that you are willing to share. I'm certainly listening! I also think that timing on an inline armature can be identified without disassembly but end bell brush manipulation is not as easy. Dave and I are pretty much the rules committee and we have discussed the Inline Stock. I just haven't made the changes in the written rules yet because we are not running the class yet. I will tell you right now that one of the main things that was going to change was not allowing the high performance chassis that have the stronger molded magnets, etc. The reason for no timing adjustment was to attempt to level the playing field and allow for some other chassis besides just the SG+. It would be very difficult to ban the SG+ from stock since it is the most popular chassis.  ? |
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Post by skillet on Aug 19, 2020 19:33:56 GMT -7
Hey Dave the pictures up there are cracked and says bad page for flicker on the link lol
I don't have a timer I mostly find the cars that are close and hopefully make one faster and repeat. The super g plus cars that I have ,to me it seems that 0 timing or advancing timing was a toss up. The cars have there own personalities. I do remember when retarding the timing some arms were getting hot to the touch, so i stopped doing that. I do want to add im still new in the dragracing so the arm getting hot may not be an issue on the strip. I would like to see your testing im not sure if its because I'm on a phone it won't link me to it.
As the rules go i read them over and over and give myself more questions ha ha. The rules are for us honest people. I see no difference if some cheats with timing or its a 5.5ohm race and they send in a 5.4 . There's to much work to put on a person to have to check all the cars or even just the winners. I like the idea you all have put in here , that if you your in doubt ask the racemaster before you send it in.
Sam/Skillet
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Post by pete on Aug 19, 2020 21:51:47 GMT -7
Jeff yes you have said to me in PM and in forum about rule discussion. The Super G+ is a separate thing and I have respected your request about that. I await your decision. After that I can decide on my own if I want to build a car or sit out in that class.
Yes neither you or Dave have told me told I can't use the fusion. Now everyone knows the car has advanced timing, now everyone knows that you can advance the end bell in the middle position. Now I can with a clear mind enter either car and not feel I have or hold an edge. Thank you. Playing by the rules is important to me. Please do not think of me as causing a problem, I only want to teach what I know as a performance fact in open communication.
Now I will get back to helping other racers get quicker should anyone consider what I have to offer.
I really am looking forward to the match race against Gnome at your race.
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Post by AJR on Aug 20, 2020 6:05:05 GMT -7
Jeff yes you have said to me in PM and in forum about rule discussion. The Super G+ is a separate thing and I have respected your request about that. I await your decision. After that I can decide on my own if I want to build a car or sit out in that class. Yes neither you or Dave have told me told I can't use the fusion. Now everyone knows the car has advanced timing, now everyone knows that you can advance the end bell in the middle position. Now I can with a clear mind enter either car and not feel I have or hold an edge. Thank you. Playing by the rules is important to me. Please do not think of me as causing a problem, I only want to teach what I know as a performance fact in open communication. Now I will get back to helping other racers get quicker should anyone consider what I have to offer. I really am looking forward to the match race against Gnome at your race. Yes I am in agreement with you about rules. They are necessary to create as level a playing field as possible and they need to be enforced. I absolutely do not think you are causing any problems. I appreciate the input and sharing of information. So that I am completely clear on the Fusion chassis.......what Class are you referencing running that in? |
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Post by wbj on Aug 20, 2020 8:38:52 GMT -7
All, I agree that rules discussions should not be done in a public forum. But maybe it's time for the NTRA to adopt sub classes for the inlines? With the pancakes you don't have as much an issue. On the other hand with all the different inline manufacturers it's another thing all together. Just look at the NHRA you don't see a A/S car going heads up against a J/Stocker. Just a thought.
p.s Skillet nailed it.... "The rules are for us honest people. I see no difference if some cheats with timing or its a 5.5ohm race and they send in a 5.4 . There's to much work to put on a person to have to check all the cars or even just the winners. I like the idea you all have put in here , that if you your in doubt ask the racemaster before you send it in."
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Post by dave632 on Aug 20, 2020 8:39:14 GMT -7
I will buy a Fusion chassis and check it for performance as I have heard nothing about how they run. It is my opinion that we should allow timing advance in all but a dead stock class and even that will be difficult to police.
My next race will include another index class race, (no rules run what you brung), which proved popular last time and it was amazing how close some of the cars ran to the 1.0 index. If I remember right ECBill was within a couple of thousandth in qualifying.
Don't know what happened to the pictures on Flickr I may have inadvertently removed them. I now pay the yearly fee so I can post as many pix as I want.
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Post by dave632 on Aug 20, 2020 9:45:15 GMT -7
I ordered a Fusion chassis for testing since no one else seems to have tried one. It will have non stock gears but other wise will be stock having the stock arm and ceramic magnets. This is how I run all my stockers. I will do a review of the chassis after I get it and let all know the good or bad.
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Super G+ chassis
Super G+ test cars
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