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Post by pceng on Apr 15, 2015 8:11:00 GMT -7
Looking at inline rules both n2 & n3 allow timing advances. N3 allows custom arms. Other than this rules are the same for both. This has been an issue in the past concerning comms being advanced The n1 class makes no mention of timing. Asuming no advances are allowed....... where does this leave cars with adjustable timing brackets.
Do they have to be set to neutral position ? End bells are sold pre-tweaked or one can do the same with stock end bell. Advance timing by brush position. Would end bell with such then have to be in a normally retarded position ?
Is there a position for the brushes in normal 0 timing that can be related to something in such bulkhead. Maybe a clock face ?
......... Peter
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Post by dave632 on Apr 15, 2015 8:59:28 GMT -7
Good question. Sometimes it is hard for rules to cover all issues that come up. 0 timing would be hard to determine anyway in most cases. You would have to be able to look at the comm and figure exactly where 0 is, not an easy thing to do.
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Post by Phantom B.S.E. on Apr 15, 2015 12:54:52 GMT -7
Looking at inline rules both n2 & n3 allow timing advances. N3 allows custom arms. Other than this rules are the same for both. This has been an issue in the past concerning comms being advanced The n1 class makes no mention of timing. Asuming no advances are allowed....... where does this leave cars with adjustable timing brackets. Do they have to be set to neutral position ? End bells are sold pre-tweaked or one can do the same with stock end bell. Advance timing by brush position. Would end bell with such then have to be in a normally retarded position ? Is there a position for the brushes in normal 0 timing that can be related to something in such bulkhead. Maybe a clock face ? ......... Peter
You should try sharing some pictures of your build and let us see what you have so far
and maybe someone can help you better.
Personally I feel like this is another BS question just to start something among members
again and it doesn't help promote the site in a good light. If you really need answers
about the rules or want changes to current rules, those things would be better off sent
in a PM to the powers that be so they can help you without trashing up the site. You can
send it to all the other people you wish at the same time to see if they wish to join in
on the topic at the same time you send it to the Administrator like the one I sent earlier
this week including just those I felt needed to be involved. |
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Post by Eagle Racing on Apr 15, 2015 13:47:30 GMT -7
Looking at inline rules both n2 & n3 allow timing advances. N3 allows custom arms. Other than this rules are the same for both. This has been an issue in the past concerning comms being advanced The n1 class makes no mention of timing. Asuming no advances are allowed....... where does this leave cars with adjustable timing brackets. Do they have to be set to neutral position ? End bells are sold pre-tweaked or one can do the same with stock end bell. Advance timing by brush position. Would end bell with such then have to be in a normally retarded position ? Is there a position for the brushes in normal 0 timing that can be related to something in such bulkhead. Maybe a clock face ? ......... Peter N2 & N3 say timing manipulation allowed. That means a Super G+ can be set at retard, zero or advance. The custom arm allows a builder to do the same for example with a Patriot P3 build. IMHO as far as N1 that is a Cordell question. I like the idea of keeping rules discussions behind the scenes. This is an area that tends to lead to a lot of negative post. We should all try to keep the site positive. This has not always been the case but I think if we try harder it can be done. |
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Post by ninjatek on Apr 15, 2015 19:05:48 GMT -7
Looking at inline rules both n2 & n3 allow timing advances. N3 allows custom arms. Other than this rules are the same for both. This has been an issue in the past concerning comms being advanced The n1 class makes no mention of timing. Asuming no advances are allowed....... where does this leave cars with adjustable timing brackets. Do they have to be set to neutral position ? End bells are sold pre-tweaked or one can do the same with stock end bell. Advance timing by brush position. Would end bell with such then have to be in a normally retarded position ? Is there a position for the brushes in normal 0 timing that can be related to something in such bulkhead. Maybe a clock face ? ......... Peter For those needing clarity about inline chassis builds the intentions are as followings: In the past members inquired about the use of various inline chassis. In an attempt to set rules so that any inline chassis could be use, the Nx system was developed. N1 - The intention here is that this be a stock build using only the components supplied by the manufacturer as purchased when new or replacement components designed to replace stock parts. No mention of timing is made as some have timing built in by design others have adjustable timing, many have none. No mention of ohms is stated either as stock armature ohms will vary dependent upon the manufacturer. In either case builder may only use stock components or stock component replacements. This build is a little lop-sided as the chassis with the lower rated stock armature is likely to be favored. However, to the builder that is loyal to a particular chassis it is a testament to his/ her building skills to be competitive in the face of adversity. N2 - Much the same idea to allow a builder to use whatever chassis preferred. The leveling factor here is that arms are limited to factory wound 3.0 ohms arms. All other performance enhancements allow for builder to be on par with competition. N3 - Again the same idea to use preferred chassis with the allowance of custom wound arms with a 3.0 ohm minimum. It is not feasible to have sets of rules for every style of inline made. These rules were set with the intention of allowing any inline chassis to compete. In N1 your preferred chassis may be at a disadvantage, but stock is stock and N1 is a stock component build. The variety of classes offers something for everyone and should be well examined before entering. In other words don't bring a "Chihuahua to a Pit Bull fight." (No offense to animal lovers, just a saying. Never been to a pit bull fight, but above scenario does not sound pretty.)Hope this answers for all who were curious. Cordell - aka Ninjatek NTRA Race Coordinator |
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Post by pceng on Apr 15, 2015 20:03:17 GMT -7
Looking at inline rules both n2 & n3 allow timing advances. N3 allows custom arms. Other than this rules are the same for both. This has been an issue in the past concerning comms being advanced The n1 class makes no mention of timing. Asuming no advances are allowed....... where does this leave cars with adjustable timing brackets. Do they have to be set to neutral position ? End bells are sold pre-tweaked or one can do the same with stock end bell. Advance timing by brush position. Would end bell with such then have to be in a normally retarded position ? Is there a position for the brushes in normal 0 timing that can be related to something in such bulkhead. Maybe a clock face ? ......... Peter For those needing clarity about inline chassis builds the intentions are as followings: In the past members inquired about the use of various inline chassis. In an attempt to set rules so that any inline chassis could be use, the Nx system was developed. N1 - The intention here is that this be a stock build using only the components supplied by the manufacturer as purchased when new or replacement components designed to replace stock parts. No mention of timing is made as some have timing built in by design others have adjustable timing, many have none. No mention of ohms is stated either as stock armature ohms will vary dependent upon the manufacturer. In either case builder may only use stock components or stock component replacements. This build is a little lop-sided as the chassis with the lower rated stock armature is likely to be favored. However, to the builder that is loyal to a particular chassis it is a testament to his/ her building skills to be competitive in the face of adversity. N2 - Much the same idea to allow a builder to use whatever chassis preferred. The leveling factor here is that arms are limited to factory wound 3.0 ohms arms. All other performance enhancements allow for builder to be on par with competition. N3 - Again the same idea to use preferred chassis with the allowance of custom wound arms with a 3.0 ohm minimum. It is not feasible to have sets of rules for every style of inline made. These rules were set with the intention of allowing any inline chassis to compete. In N1 your preferred chassis may be at a disadvantage, but stock is stock and N1 is a stock component build. The variety of classes offers something for everyone and should be well examined before entering. In other words don't bring a "Chihuahua to a Pit Bull fight." (No offense to animal lovers, just a saying. Never been to a pit bull fight, but above scenario does not sound pretty.)Hope this answers for all who were curious. Cordell - aka Ninjatek NTRA Race Coordinator Thank you , Cordell ! As explained the N1 will be a very interesting class....... ....... Peter |
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lewis
Pro Stock
Posts: 220
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Post by lewis on Apr 15, 2015 23:47:20 GMT -7
I honestly think that was a very good question. I helped to clarify for me also. Thanks peter,ninja, and eagle.
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Post by nosubfor3 on Apr 16, 2015 4:40:48 GMT -7
All you x road racers out there if you have stock chassis from each manufacturer check the ohms on the arms. Tomy made nothing but 6+ ohms for the SG+. Tyco made both 6+ and 3.5. Some of the Tyco arms I have had ohm'd at 9 and 11 ohms. AW Super III ohm at 6+. I had both LL "M" and "T" type chassis but do not remember what the ohm rating was. My point as stated by Cordell "stock chassis type is racer preference."If you race a SG+ against A Super III the G+ will win every time. One final thought is STOCK is STOCK as it came from the manufacturer. Take it out of the wrapper,tune it,put it on the track, race it. - Tomy has the advanced timing arms, Tyco is neutral. - This line in the read; "Tyco/Mattel armatures will fit the Wizard, while Tomy arms can be used in the BSRT G3" This is true except for the Tomy Mega-G which has neutral timing, will burn up in a G3. Read this article in the archives link on the home page. ninjatekprojects.com/PDF/TOMYSUPERG.pdf |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 5:26:32 GMT -7
let me say that my group runs several "stock" classes. in reference to armatures, both inline and pancake, the intent is that the armature be a match to the chassis. no usng a Patriot arm in a Tyco chassis is one example. even though the arm is a "stock" Patriot arm, it is not in a Tyco chassis from the manufacturer.
similarly, pancake arms/chassis lend themselves to a whol arena of abuses. for instance a 6 OHM armature was never found in "STOCK" t-jet chassis. how ever an identical chassis with a 6 OHM arm and silver content brushes was called a "Wild Ones" and therefore require a different classification. then we move on to the "TUFF ONES" however the metal elictrical parts were silver plated as were the pick up shoes. the motor brushes were silver content and the armatue was still 6 OHM. so again a different class.
even in AFX/ MAGNATTRACTION there were differences. magnet strength (as well as size) that came with a higher OHM armature (14 OHM) in the MAGNATRACTION was one difference. the electrical system, mainly the motor brush set up, in the MAGNATRACTION was considered superior to the AFX "domed" brushes. so putting the lower OHM (6 OHM) AFX armature in a MAGNATRACTION chassis would NOT be stock.
further, putting a 4 OHM SUPER II Quadralam armature in anything else would NOT be stock.
similar differences exist in modern pancake armatures which, again, require specification of the exact chassis they are allowed in.
back to inline.
Life Like has had a couple different chassis designs which had different magnet field alignments making only the arm that came with a specific chassis even work. Life Like was also preceded in ownership/manufacturer design by ROKAR and at least one other "name" and it would NOT be kosher to switch armatures between those chassis.
over the years, different chassis have become the "king", but the reign never lasts.
so when a specific chassis was found to be superior, it was the preferred chassis.
in the case of the TOMY chassis with adjustable timing, that became the darling of drag racers because of many features.
now, to have a different "stock" class for each different chassis type design would be ludicrous so generally all the stock chassis from different manufacturers are lumped together and the one that seems to work best for most racers becomes the dominant brand.
there is no point in trying to please everyone. I do applaud EVERYONE's participation and suggestions towards a common goal. and to non-seasond racers this might all seem strange, but to guys who have been playing with these toys for more than a few years, all that I have said becomes quite self evident.
I found some guys racing in a hobby shop some ten or more years ago and their rules were set up for each individual manufacturer's chassis and also sight differences (like using slip on silicone tires). they even had a slowest car race.
the printed list of classes and spelled out rules for each of those classes rivalled the Encyclopedia Brittanica in size. of course, they ran different classes each meet (about once a month) and had a best of three elimination system.
they raced for fun.
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Post by pceng on Apr 16, 2015 6:28:25 GMT -7
Hey guys,
The way I understand explination........ G+ type will have the option of adjusting timing. The Tyco 3.5 ohm arm would be allowed if in original chassis that used this arm. Think it was the HP X2......
Have to congratulate Cordell, on this ! This will be a very interesting class.
From attending past races at , Doug412 event. And in particular seeing results in the hurst races......... slight edge to G's with timing advanced. SLIGHT ! Here why based on those races....... 2013 - Sam (SKR), sent a SG+ right out of box...... bested both 6 & 3 ohm arms in other cars. Lost to 3ohm w/poly mm. Past year 2014, same car as year before wins....... through pure luck ! Two G3's were my picks for the finals. Both were quick....... cars from, Dave & Mike. If not for clearance problems think one or the other would have won event. This is a 1/8 mile (or close to it 10') track so quick counts. 15 or 20' , will be a different story.
Again from read...... arms meant to replace stock arms (being of same ohms as stock) are allowed. So called "hot stock" or lightweight arms can be used in G3's or such type chassis. While these arms hold an edge over stock. It is in longer race applications. Races that take.minutes where heat becomes a factor. Fastest 6's I have came out of stock cars. Best the "hot stocks" every time on strip.
The size & strenght of the mm's in the G's also give an advantage over other chassis. But the Hp X2 with 3.5 and right combination of magnets could make for some very close racing between the two chassis. Time will tell.
Life Like chassis, both M & T.types have 6 ohm arms. As mentioned 9 ohm arms are some stock cars. Have also found 7 ohm arms in cars (always been green wire, not usual red).
Voltage for races could be a factor also...... the big LL-T arms come alive over 13v.
Looking forward to seeing how this class plays out...... back to experimenting with two DIFFERENT chassis for me.
........ Peter
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Post by dave632 on Apr 16, 2015 9:44:57 GMT -7
I am planning on running a stock inline class for the race in August.
Been talking with Cordell about putting a 6 ohm minimum for the stock arms, or just letting
the chips fall where they may and allow any stock arm to run. Policing this would be
near impossible however.
What are the thoughts on this?
I have had numerous cases where 3 ohm stock arms were beat by 6 ohm ones but in theory at least
the 3 should win. My fastest 6 ohm pancake beats all of the 6 ohm inlines.
The class will be run at the NTRA standard 18 volts. The top cars there should be hitting around
20 mph.
Peters statement about timing making little difference holds true with my tests on the G3 cars. I tried them at 0 and maximum advance available on that chassis and the ET difference was in the thousandths of a second. Not much to worry about in my opinion but there was a difference. |
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Post by pceng on Apr 16, 2015 10:46:50 GMT -7
My impression is that 3.5 ohm arms are legal in chassis they were sold in. Tyco , think it was HP X2. The difference in ohms between this chassis and a 6ohm in a G3 may produce a class where more than one chassis type is competitive.
Dave, if you get the chance run a stock SG or G3 at 18v (think that is right for stock) .........and let us know an et. What voltage did you run bracket cars ? Had such a Tyco at your race :-) Comparison of sorts ?
Think this will be a fun class....... might be calling for stock rats.in Oct. Get all kinds of body styles involved. Was going to use a Mega G as one car, been using that chassis for latest builds with detailed mtrs. One for grins, and another probably G3. Now I'd.like to use 5 or 6 different chassis.........
How many cars can I send to a race....... I mean I got two friends want to send cars with mine......lol.
........ Peter
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Post by dave632 on Apr 16, 2015 11:51:30 GMT -7
If all want to just go with whatever the cars came with for the Inline stock race that is fine with me. I do not plan on running in that race so I will just be a spectator. I will have to look up the records for a stock G3 but I think the stock 6 ohm ran around .8s / 9s at around 12-13 mph. I had bought those used and the previous owner had put the wrong size axle in. .063?  for a .059. After I found the trouble and put the right size axle in they picked up and ran in the 6s/7s. at 16-18 mph. My stock HP X2s were running similar times but not when they were new. They took some break in and motor brush tension adjustment. My best Inline stock car is a Tyco. It has actually ran in the .59s at times but it has braids on the pickups. All those were run at 20v so they will be slower at 18v. I will do some checking for you since we have a lot of time before the race. Peter I have no restrictions, at my races, as to how many cars are sent in. Just send in enough cash to cover what insurance you want for the cars. Just put markings and numbers on all the cars. This might be an interesting class to see which stock cars are the quickest/fastest. |
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Post by pceng on Apr 16, 2015 15:30:15 GMT -7
Hey Dave,
Was only joking about amount of entries. Thought was I'd like to see that many different chassis entered in a race. I have a number of cars that certainly will not be fast enough to win. But that I'd like to see make a few passes. Mega G's , Super III's and such. Think others might feel the same.
The various chassis allowed could in effect make this a class that is more focused on fun vs winning. One could pick a body then use whatever chassis necessary to get it rolling. Thats why I mentioned rats before.
If trying to win is main concern, one would still have a choice as to which chassis to use.
The times you reported for the G car were about the same as what my Tyco ran at two bracket races. Don't remember exact times. But they were in that same 0.6 - .7 range.
....... Peter
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Post by sjracer on May 1, 2015 14:00:23 GMT -7
I always thought tabs were cut off 4 gear chassis(es) to allow for the old/new bodies to be interchangeable. Before the recent AW run Afx four gears had less than 10 bodies available not the case with the 3 gear bodies they are extreme, plentiful. Also, I'll let you know removing the mounts a on chassis will run faster depending on how tight or lose a body fits don't take my word for it experiment with your best chassis and run the first run of the AW 55s or more specifically the Badman body it will slow your 3 gear cars down to a crawl.
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for a .059. After I found the trouble and put the right size axle in they picked up and ran in the 6s/7s. at 16-18 mph. My stock HP X2s were running similar times but not when they were new. They took some break in and motor brush tension adjustment. My best Inline stock car is a Tyco. It has actually ran in the .59s at times but it has braids on the pickups. All those were run at 20v so they will be slower at 18v.