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Post by pceng on Apr 8, 2015 7:25:54 GMT -7
Been wanting to send a car to a NTRA event. That within rules for a given class would do a wheelie......... just for grins. A chassis lifting from track would need guide pin relocated. I believe that would render it illegal. Would a chassis with body hinged on axle be legal ?
Second was a though and question. We have rules limiting ohms on arms for about every class. Most all state factory wound or no timing advances. So Aurora , AW , Dash are all legal if ohm limits are right. Without all the names, same for inlines and any given class. In other words it doesn't matter who's arm you use. As long as it is factory.
If it doesn't matter which factory the arm came from as long as specks are met. Why should it matter who wound the arm ? Or why should re-winds not be allowed if specks are met ?
Though this migh help as a draw for races......... maybe pick up a racer or two. Been posts from those doing winding that I have not seen at races. A little sugar could help. What do you think.
......... Peter
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 8:17:06 GMT -7
I think, actually I know because I know Jim Sgrignioli very well, that custom wound arms to factory spec are far superior to factory wound arms in all respects.
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Post by pceng on Apr 8, 2015 14:10:19 GMT -7
Ageed, just from the standpoint of time and care taken in process.
So we sort through factory arms trying to find one superior to others. If keeping costs down is considered this can not help do so. A Yellow Jacket or one wound at home would be far more cost effective.
I believe balancing is allowed in most classes other than stock....... curious, in what other aspects are non-factory arms considered superior ? Flat comm plates ? Trued shafts ?
........ Peter
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Post by dave632 on Apr 8, 2015 15:58:11 GMT -7
I think there should be some classes where custom wound arms are allowed as long as they meet a certain reading on the ohm meter.
I agree with Peter since we do have some guys on the site who are interested in winding their own. I vote to have some of the classes allow custom wound arms besides the Outlaws and I do not like winding my own arms.
I have only had a couple of custom wound arms that would fit in any classes we run and I did NOT find a custom wound 6 ohm arm superior to my best Mean Green, etc. In fact my best green arm kicked its butt. This does not mean that some might not be.
Here is what you need for a wheelstander: The center has a rubber connection between the two pickups and the pin is glued in. The mounting tabs are curled over so that it will not come out during a wheelie and the springs have to be glued in. I will install this on a T jet and let you know what it does.
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Post by pceng on Apr 8, 2015 18:18:35 GMT -7
The arms were a thought.......... could not see doing it when I have a few extra arms for classes we run. I am far from an expert on winding arms so any differences between factory & custom. Or things that might be done when windiing are of intrest. But aside from whether one particular arm is better than another. The combination of arm & mags is probably more important towards performance. Unless somebody has a shoebox full of magnets......... I can't see arm alone making any appreciable difference. Like I said, I'm no expert on the matter.
My thought was allowing such might get more intrested in proxy racing. Also might get help in expanding existing participation by making builds less expensive in terms of procuring a good arm. Saw a number if members looking for arms for upcoming X 3 races.
Dave, swing arms for t-jet chassis are example of guide pin being moved from original location. Don't think that would be allowed as rules stand.
Was wondering if hinging body by rear axle would be allowed. Mounting bodies is sort of left up to participants. Maybe I just answered my question.
......... Peter
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Post by dave632 on Apr 8, 2015 18:31:46 GMT -7
I was going to put that setup on just to try it out. It worked in the past but by no means did it help ET. Maybe with a wheelie bar to limit how far it could lift it might work. I will give it a shot just for the fun of it.
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Post by pceng on Apr 8, 2015 19:27:15 GMT -7
As with anything wheelies slow ET's.......... but they do look cool.
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Post by AJR on Apr 9, 2015 5:01:23 GMT -7
I think allowing custom winds even if they are of the same ohm rating would be an unfair advantage as alpink stated. Maybe changing some specific classes to allow custom winds would be an option, but as far as adding more classes just to accommodate custom winds I am not in favor of. I think we have plenty of classes as things stand now. Peter said it best about matching arms to magnets....or just matching parts in general has more bearing than finding that "hot stock" arm. At least that's what works for me. I also don't think this would have much if any bearing on getting more participation in the races. There are only a few individuals that are dabbling in motor winds as it is. Anyway that's my opinion on that subject.
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Post by Eagle Racing on Apr 9, 2015 5:12:24 GMT -7
I agree with matching up parts that work the best. I don't really worry to much about the arms ohms being the lowest. As far as custom winds I agree with Jeff, class specific only.
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lewis
Pro Stock
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Post by lewis on Apr 9, 2015 8:21:37 GMT -7
Peter I agree I think a class allowing custom winds would be great its just a freedom thing to do what you want with the arm of course staying in a certain range. Just makes more of a competition.
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Post by dave632 on Apr 9, 2015 9:46:59 GMT -7
We would not want custom winds in every class of course, only certain top performance classes would be my recommendation.
The upcoming, (race will be announced soon), August Inline race will have an experimental class for custom rewinds or whatever you want to get a time for. Along with the 3 regular NTRA Inline classes.
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Post by pceng on Apr 9, 2015 9:54:17 GMT -7
I don't think any more classes should be added to what now exists. Matching arm & mags that work best gets better results for me than just going to lowest allowed ohms on arm.
So unless there is a way of measuring magnetic force generated by an arm to match given magnets. And then adjusting amount of wire or turns to match. How is there an advantage ?
I do not think classes that allow balancing to arms would gain an advantage using customs. Maybe there are things I'm unaware of as far as custom winds go. Thats why I asked how customs are superior to factory arms. Or how they would have an advantage. I've never wound an arm to factory specs. Have no idea of wire guage used (could measure). Personally, can't see doing it........ to me it would be a waste of time. I have a small surpluse of different ohm (factory) arms for the classes we run.
Like I said, I'm no expert...... if there is something that separates the two in classes that allow balancing & truing. I'd appreciate knowing what it is.
Aside from possible cost reduction in finding a good arm. I believe it could also lead to more business for sponsors who do arms. Much the same as the hard body for those sponsors doing castings.
The possibility of picking up more racers would increase...... not that it would necessarily do so. But adding incentives can't hurt. Just looking for enticements. We have many registered here but only a handfull that participate in events. If there were a way of tapping into the thoughts of those that do not participate. Then participation might grow.
........... Peter
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Post by pceng on Apr 9, 2015 9:59:36 GMT -7
We would not want custom winds in every class of course, only certain top performance classes would be my recommendation. The upcoming, (race will be announced soon), August Inline race will have an experimental class for custom rewinds or whatever you want to get a time for. Along with the 3 regular NTRA Inline classes. Thanks, been meaning to ask about time frame...... ....... Peter |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 10:23:52 GMT -7
" .... I've never wound an arm to factory specs. Have no idea of wire guage used (could measure). Personally, can't see doing it........ to me it would be a waste of time. ... "
then it really would be a waste of timing suggesting it?
however, there are those who do "do it"!
so, there must be SOMETHING to creating a hand wound armature to specific factory specs that makes it worth paying for and a winder winding it.
let me see if I can make a silly analogy .....
you can go to McDonalds and get a Big Mac that is made the same way world 'round and they are all supposed to taste the same. and that is what you pay for and expect.
however, because it is individual people who actually create the Big Mac, they are NOT exactly the same although very extremely similar(this is the equal of your factory wound armature).
now, my brother Rooster ( highly rated cook ) can recreate any dish from any bill of fare, including the Big Mac and their special sauce(which ain't really all that special or a guarded secret). so, when he creates an exact replica of a Big Mac to their specifications it tastes much, much better(that is your custom wound armature of the same specifications as the factory wound armature).
yes, yes, yes .... a VERY silly analogy.
yet very, very, very true.
AND Rooster's Big Mac tastes so very, very, very much better that I cannot go back to eating a McDonalds Big Mac.
without implicating anyone, racers or builders, there are armature rewinders that DO wind to factory specs and it is nearly impossible to tell the difference(except witnessing the results on track). they do tell customers to " ... use at your own risk ... " indicating to said customers that the part may NOT be class legal and that if there is a penalty for doing so, it is NOT the builders responsibility or fault.
finally, ..... if you really want to know the "special sauce" that custom armature winders are using when creating factory spec arms, YOU will have ask THEM your self.
I think the horse is dead, but that will never prevent some folks from continuing to beat it.
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Post by AJR on Apr 9, 2015 10:25:36 GMT -7
Peter I'm no expert either but if these veteran winders say it is an advantage then who am I to argue. But if someone is winding their own motors then they will be using better comm plates, gauge of wire could be altered, and ohm rating could be the very lowest allowed. To me that would be an advantage to the custom wound arm. It would create more business for the custom winders here on the sight, but then that means racers are spending more money on builds to stay competitive. If cost is such a focus then why are so many experimental classes being run. I know that my budget has gotten bigger for this hobby, but I still will not be able to afford all of these classes that are being talked about. We are running an N3 inline build for Summer Nats and it is going to take several months to budget that in as I do not have all the extra parts that a lot of members do. That car will be $100+. Allowing custom winds is just going to make things cost a little more. I race to have fun and be competitive....not just to have fun. Allowing it on some of the hotter builds might be something to seriously consider though.
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